Michael Sukkar MP

Interview with Michael McLaren – 2GB Afternoons

THE HON MICHAEL SUKKAR MP – SHADOW MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES, NDIS, HOUSING AND HOMELESSNESS

TRANSCRIPT

INTERVIEW WITH MICHAEL McLAREN – 2GB AFTERNOONS

Thursday 26 September, 2024

TOPICS: Lebanon attacks

E&OE

Michael McLaren: He’s on the show. Michael, I do appreciate your time. Thank you.

Michael Sukkar: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Michael McLaren: Look, I don’t know if you’ve still got family in Lebanon these days or not. Irrespective, we have heard recently from our own Foreign Minister, Penny Wong, once again reminding Australians that have connections there. Get out, get out of Lebanon. Leave now. It’s just a reiteration of comments, I think, that were made even weeks ago at the height of the Hamas Israel conflict. People saying, get out of Lebanon, it’s not safe. You know, I mean, ultimately there will be some Australians who decide to stay. I mean, what’s your message to these people?

Michael Sukkar: Well, look, I do have some extended family still living in Lebanon, and a lot of Australian Lebanese will, you know, travel back from time to time either annually or, you know, every few years to visit the old country. So it’s tragic what’s happening there. I think the message from the government for a little while now has been correct. If you can get out, get out as early as possible. I think the challenge for many people were that when those calls were first starting to be made, many of the airlines had ceased operations out of Lebanon. That then meant that for people who had had bookings that they obviously couldn’t be fulfilled and then trying to purchase alternative flights for the few airlines that were continuing to operate meant that you paying 10 and 15 times for the face value of a ticket to try and actually get on one of one of the very few seats that were available. So we’re talking tens of thousands of dollars to get a ticket, which was impossible for many people. So whilst the government’s calls were correct, the viable options for people to leave at that point were very difficult and, you know, I think it’s fair to say, you know, echoing the sentiments of many Australians with a Lebanese background and heritage, that they were hoping the government may do more to facilitate some of those people who were, in a sense trapped because, you know, as I said, getting those scarce seats out of on a on a plane out of Beirut was was basically impossible for many people. But the message clearly is, you know, get out of the region.

Michael McLaren: If you can get out, yeah and of course, it’s only going to get harder from here on in. Now, what’s the story with I mean, we talk about Lebanon as if it’s one sort of homogeneous entity. It’s not really I mean, there’s sort of north Lebanon of south Lebanon, really, and there’s a geographic and demographic differences between the two. Beirut’s sort of the melting pot in the middle, basically. But the the situation in southern Lebanon and Hezbollah. What’s your take on all of that? Because, you know, Penny Wong saying we don’t want Lebanon to become the next Gaza, but, you know, politically, administratively, southern Lebanon basically is another Gaza, isn’t it?

Michael Sukkar: Well, people who don’t follow Middle Eastern politics, you know, might be surprised to learn that, you know, Hezbollah is almost like a, it’s a shadow government, a state within a state. They operate as a separate entity, with a military wing, with a parliamentary wing, and the truth, is and I think it would be hard for many people to object to what I’m about to say. Hezbollah is not there to fight for the interests of Lebanon – they are essentially a satellite of Iran. They take their orders from the mullahs in Tehran. They are funded by Iran. And so the tragedy here is, is that the people of Lebanon suffer because they’re being used as a pawn by Iran to attack Israel. And the calls for a cease fire on one hand are a very obvious sort of request to make for anyone who doesn’t want to see people injured, but the truth is, Hezbollah has been firing rockets into Israel for a long time now. And it’s very hard that, you know, to think about it in ordinary parlance, that you walk up to somebody in the street and you start punching them in the face and then they hit you back and you say, hold on, I want a ceasefire. Well, you know, that’s not how it works. So I have a great deal of sympathy for Israel’s decision that they’ve taken, that it’s untenable for them to continue to be bombarded from bombs on the other side of the border in Lebanon and that they have to fight back and dismantle Hezbollah. And may I add, I think there would be many groups, both in political terms and in religious terms, many groups who will be loudly and some of them will be quietly cheering on Israel, hoping that they can dismantle and hopefully destroy Hezbollah, because it has had such a terrible and negative influence on Lebanon. They don’t fight for Lebanon. They’re not doing anything in the interests of Lebanon. Everything they do is in the interests of Iran. And in that sense, I think many are hoping that Israel will be able to do even more to dismantle what we’ve listed as a terrorist organisation.

Michael McLaren: Yes, that’s exactly the point. I note as we speak, Australia, the US and other Western nations have just called for an immediate 21 day ceasefire in Lebanon. But what you’re saying that doesn’t necessarily sound that smart or practical?

Michael Sukkar: Well, I mean, I understand the calls for a ceasefire because, you know, any time we can protect lives, it’s important. But at the same time, you cannot as a sovereign nation, cannot accept being bombarded with bombs and having to evacuate large swathes of their civilian population to basically get them out of the bombing zone. I mean, I’m an MP here in Victoria. I’m, you know, a member of the Federal Parliament. If another nation was bombing any inch of the soil of my country, it would be derelict of me as a leader to not be doing everything we possibly could to protect our citizens and protect our borders. And that’s precisely what Israel is doing. So Hezbollah can’t be, at the request of Iran bombing, bombing Israel, and now protesting that Israel is fighting back. They have every right, indeed, they have an obligation to do that.

Michael McLaren: Well, I wanted to ask you about what you just actually raised there, because as I said at the introduction and I made this point a lot of the time, I feel that should it push ever come to shove in Australia, we’d be run by the Vichy and not the de Gaulle’s of this world. You know, I mean, there’s there seems to be a lot of people around here that say, well, you know, when things get a bit hot the first thing we’ve got to do is get a ceasefire or we all pull back or, and of course, all that ever does, and history has shown all that ever does in the Middle East particularly is give the terrorist organisations time to rearm and regroup. You know, I mean, at some point we need a bit more Winston Churchill in this world, don’t we?

Michael Sukkar: Well, look, to use to use the same sort of analogy. If an October 7 occurred in Australia and you had a terrorist group that brutally murdered, raped, mutilated 1,200 Australians, as a member of the Coalition, I think we would do everything we could to wipe that terrorist group off the face of the earth, as would be our duty. And every Australian life in that sense is precious and we would fight hard for it. I’d like to think that we would be more de Gaulle, less Vichy, but I think your opening remarks were very telling, and that is that from the comfort of the other side of the world, it’s very easy to impose on Israel a standard where they are literally escaping into bunkers when the bombing sirens go off or 60,000 have been completely evacuated from their homes because it’s within the bombing zone of Hezbollah or people who live with the ever present danger of terrorist bombs or terrorist attacks going on every single day. I mean, the idea that that those individuals in a democratic nation don’t have the right to defend their sovereignty and protect themselves from those threats is remarkable. And I think you can only probably make those sorts of arguments in the comfort of a safe democracy on the other side of the world. And sadly, that’s what we see from too many Western commentators and politicians and the UN.

Michael McLaren: And history shows it’s a safe democracy only because in times gone by we had people willing to fight the wars to make sure it remains thus. Just I’ve got about 2 minutes, Michael, if I can get you to squeeze and answer here quickly. My concern with all of what’s going on with everything established is that Israel hasn’t worked out what victory actually looks like because Hezbollah and Hamas, the physical manifestations of an ideology, an ideology you say out of Iran, you know, you wipe out 10,000 foot soldiers, 10,000 more fill the void. I mean, how how does Israel win this practically?

Michael Sukkar: Well, I think, you know, the pessimists amongst us say that, you know, the the issues in the Middle East have almost been there forever and will be there forever. The truth is they have to fight every battle as it faces them now. Israel didn’t ask Hamas to invade their territory and slaughter 1,200 innocent people, but they have to respond. They didn’t ask for Hezbollah to start lobbing ballistic missiles and other weapons into their sovereign territory. So, you have to sort of deal with that immediate risk and and stamp it out. But I don’t think any of us should be deluded that in the end, it will do anything to change the ideology, which is basically al Qaeda, which is ISIS, which is a bloodthirsty Islamist ideology that is shared by a small number of groups around the world. But they, you know, I don’t think they’re ever going to let go of that. But you got to you’ve got to fight them back. And they only understand one thing and that’s strength, nothing else. And that’s what Israel needs to show right now.

Michael McLaren: Well, the region is on the brink again, as they say, and hopefully somehow can all calm down, although I, you know, I sort of won’t hold my breath. Great to talk, though, Michael, despite the circumstances. Thank you for your time.

Michael Sukkar: My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Take care.

Michael McLaren: Michael Sukkar, the Liberal MP for Deakin.

ENDS